Redshirting

Back-to-back PL champs 2016 and 2017.... but need to get back to relevance in the national FCS scene.
Bison_137
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Re: Redshirting

Post by Bison_137 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am

ngineer wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:01 pm
As for the PL, I think the big thing against redshirting is that many PL schools do not have any or significant graduate programs where a "5th year senior" can earn another degree. Lehigh has a substantial graduate school, so that would need to be addressed.
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Yes, that's a big issue for some schools. It has been particularly big for Bucknell. There are really only two grad programs, i.e. certain types of engineering plus education. If an athlete didn't major in one of those two, then they are not going to be allowed to do grad school to get a 5th year. And unlike some other PL schools, Bucknell administration won't allow a player to pick up a second major or do something else to extend their undergrad education into a 5th year. That is why they haven't had a true 5th year football player for over 15 years. The only "exceptions" have been All-American punter, Alex Pechin, who has been a 5-year engineer from Day one and thus didn't need to change anything, plus two players who dropped out of school for a semester.


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RichH
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Re: Redshirting

Post by RichH » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:28 am

Bison_137 wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am
ngineer wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:01 pm
As for the PL, I think the big thing against redshirting is that many PL schools do not have any or significant graduate programs where a "5th year senior" can earn another degree. Lehigh has a substantial graduate school, so that would need to be addressed.
.
Yes, that's a big issue for some schools. It has been particularly big for Bucknell. There are really only two grad programs, i.e. certain types of engineering plus education. If an athlete didn't major in one of those two, then they are not going to be allowed to do grad school to get a 5th year. And unlike some other PL schools, Bucknell administration won't allow a player to pick up a second major or do something else to extend their undergrad education into a 5th year. That is why they haven't had a true 5th year football player for over 15 years. The only "exceptions" have been All-American punter, Alex Pechin, who has been a 5-year engineer from Day one and thus didn't need to change anything, plus two players who dropped out of school for a semester.
Agree that implementation of any form of NCAA redshirting even on a very limited basis poses significant issues for those colleges without grad schools or some variety of 5 year programs.
137 would it be possible at Bucknell to have designated redshirts take less credits for enough semesters to build in an extra semester ?
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RichH
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Re: Redshirting

Post by RichH » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:47 am

van wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:06 am so here is my question that bothers me, since we are now offering 60 football scholarships vs the 57 or so equivalencies we reportedly gave before, why are we not recruiting better?
The answer is that we do get better players. I compare the offer sheets of schollie recruits with those preschollie. A significant change for the better. But, the playing field has changed substantially over the last 5-6 years. We have not been able to keep pace. Moreover the niche PL had has vanished.

Regardless LFN is right. Without some type of redshirting we are at a distinct disadvantage versus all of the local conferences.Bison 137 is also correct that redshirting would put some PL teams at a rather severe disadvantage. There does not appear to be an easy or fair method for the PL to construct a redshirting plan without some specific changes made by the colleges to adapt.
van may have a point that the addition of 3 schollies may level the playing the playing field. Enough? Not sure. Perhaps if coaches can make more and better use of attracting non "recruited" players in more numbers.
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lfnadmin
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Re: Redshirting

Post by lfnadmin » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:02 pm

This would be a very compelling argument, until you take a peek at Wofford College's roster (who does not have a graduate program) and see 20+ redshirt freshmen and a bunch of players listed as "seniors" but are actually 5th years. So my counterpoint to this is: those who are thinking that a lack of a grad school prevents redshirting aren't looking hard enough at ways to implement it.

Redshirting, if practically applied to the PL, would have a similar effect as to how it plays out at, say, Delaware or Villanova. Some kids would use a redshirt and use the scholarship money to go to grad school. Others would simply continue to go to school and take classes that could be used in grad school eventually (if they are a college without a grad school). Others would also realistically look at their football careers and say that they just want to get on with working for Goldman Sachs. It will cost a bit more, but more kids will get education opportunities that prepares them for life.

Certainly IMO the status quo is not sustainable, where the Ivy League abuses the "grayshirt" rule and literally every other league redshirts with impunity. This isn't about getting an advantage. It's merely updating the PL to reflect what every other school is doing.
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RichH
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Re: Redshirting

Post by RichH » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:58 pm

lfnadmin wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:02 pm This would be a very compelling argument, until you take a peek at Wofford College's roster (who does not have a graduate program) and see 20+ redshirt freshmen and a bunch of players listed as "seniors" but are actually 5th years. So my counterpoint to this is: those who are thinking that a lack of a grad school prevents redshirting aren't looking hard enough at ways to implement it.

Redshirting, if practically applied to the PL, would have a similar effect as to how it plays out at, say, Delaware or Villanova. Some kids would use a redshirt and use the scholarship money to go to grad school. Others would simply continue to go to school and take classes that could be used in grad school eventually (if they are a college without a grad school). Others would also realistically look at their football careers and say that they just want to get on with working for Goldman Sachs. It will cost a bit more, but more kids will get education opportunities that prepares them for life.

Certainly IMO the status quo is not sustainable, where the Ivy League abuses the "grayshirt" rule and literally every other league redshirts with impunity. This isn't about getting an advantage. It's merely updating the PL to reflect what every other school is doing.
PL can permit some form of redshirting. My point is whether the colleges can or will adapt. I imagine Wofford has its selected redshirts take less credits. Enough each semester to comply withh NCAA rule but also adequate to get at least 1 extra semester. Perhaps there are other alternatives.
owl has his point on better coaching as a factor. However, that is an variable for each team not one that the PL has a voice in. PL must 1st provide the means to enable improvement. Up to each school to use or not use them.
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Re: Redshirting

Post by mookie » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:27 pm

Woffard? We should approve redshirting because Woffard allows it? Oh boy.
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lfnadmin
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Re: Redshirting

Post by lfnadmin » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:01 pm

mookie wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:27 pm Woffard? We should approve redshirting because Woffard allows it? Oh boy.
Not just Wofford. All schools except the schools of the Patriot League. It doesn't matter if they're colleges or universities, non-scholarship or scholarship. They either make a mockery of the rules (Ivies), or they offer them (literally everyone else except the Patriot League Seven).
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Re: Redshirting

Post by Bison_137 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:25 pm

RichH wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:28 am
137 would it be possible at Bucknell to have designated redshirts take less credits for enough semesters to build in an extra semester ?

No, not allowed by the Administration.
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Re: Redshirting

Post by Bison_137 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:26 pm

lfnadmin wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:01 pm
mookie wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:27 pm Woffard? We should approve redshirting because Woffard allows it? Oh boy.
Not just Wofford. All schools except the schools of the Patriot League. It doesn't matter if they're colleges or universities, non-scholarship or scholarship. They either make a mockery of the rules (Ivies), or they offer them (literally everyone else except the Patriot League Seven).
Most PL schools make far more of a mockery of the rules than do the Ivy's.
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RichH
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Re: Redshirting

Post by RichH » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:07 pm

Bison_137 wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:26 pm
lfnadmin wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:01 pm
mookie wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:27 pm Woffard? We should approve redshirting because Woffard allows it? Oh boy.
Not just Wofford. All schools except the schools of the Patriot League. It doesn't matter if they're colleges or universities, non-scholarship or scholarship. They either make a mockery of the rules (Ivies), or they offer them (literally everyone else except the Patriot League Seven).
Most PL schools make far more of a mockery of the rules than do the Ivy's.
Doesnt seem all that possible. How?
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