Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Back-to-back PL champs 2016 and 2017.... but need to get back to relevance in the national FCS scene.
mookie
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by mookie » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:54 am

Villanova is a haven for people from New Jersey. Kind of a Rutgers satellite.

MOD: First warning.


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jimk72
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by jimk72 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:12 pm

This has been an incredible discussion from a broad range of perspectives and age groups. Yet fnadmin has hit the nail on the head. As usual........ The roster size and red shirt restrictions are ridiculous.....
Last edited by jimk72 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LU808 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:56 pm

Richb-3 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:09 pm
LU808 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:39 pm
Mountain Hawk wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:14 pm

Yeah it’s just like that.

Lots of people living in the dark like you but that’s cool. We always need someone to come in on Saturdays and sweep up the dead bodies.
Deploying capital to it's highest purpose serves everyone....
Yep. when you reach 64 years of age, and plan on enjoying retirement with $2000 SS monthly and $3000 pension Monthly you benefit from capitalism. But then you find You are down to just SS after a corporate raid, you certainly benefit that much more..
Most if not all circumstances boil down to a series of life choices that were made and not made. No one should be held accountable to pay for the direction or lack of direction of your life. Did you graduate HS / College? Find a way to ay for continued education (community college, military)? Chose a paying profession instead of following your passion (hobby)? Save $$ for retirement or emergencies? Not have children out of wedlock? Limit yourself to children you could afford? Put off purchasing that boat, RV, bigger prestige home, 2nd home, Hawaii vacation until you could actually afford it? Not live off credit cards and debt? Avoid drugs and alcohol? Not get in legal / criminal trouble?

I'll pay for my own decisions....I ask that others pay for theirs.
Mountain Hawk
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by Mountain Hawk » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:18 pm

lfnadmin wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:45 am
TMH wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:34 pm HFO's international survey of colleges and Universities is relevant and points out a problem but I suggest it may not be the problem everyone is alluding to.

The real problem IMHO persists nationally too. Our footprint is too small primarily because are feet are too small.
In the mid 19990s, Lehigh lost the support of Bethlehem Steel which for all intents and purposes propped us up with funding, research projects, equipment , buildings and most of all jobs. The President at that time (5 Presidents ago) decided to re-brand Lehigh and in essence minimize our engineering legacy. We were no longer considered an engineering school by design. At the same time we decided to become a National University rather than a regional one. Since that time we have made significant progress on the West Coast and along the Atlantic seaboard but we're still widely unknown in the South and the Midwest. Since the US News and World Report uses peer review as a significant criteria, being unknown in places drags down our rankings.

Are we mediocre? No. We are very, very good. We are not elite yet.

US News and World Report, the Bible of rankings on a national scale has us ranked #49 T. There are about 5,300 colleges and universities in the US.

Our undergraduate and much maligned faculty is in a logjam at #13 with among others Duke, Harvard, Stanford and the University of Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... e-teaching

We are also #26 in value of the education.

Internationally, it gets much worth. We are a very much of an unknow. We are very small with only 5,000 undergraduate but even worse we only have about 1,700 grad students where foreign students tend to end up in. Our footprint is really, really small. We have far, far fewer foreign students than any of the schools on HFOs list.
The experience of foreign students at Lehigh is ranked very high but there is a vocal opposition to increasing the #s
Good post. As is HFO's relevant information. Personally I think the truth is somewhere in between the rosy US News rankings (as Lehigh people I think we tend to over-rely on them) and the international rankings (which seems to be measuring something different). I think the discussion puts on display the dilemma. If you're just relying on US News, why not just do things like field championship-caliber teams that boost USA people's perceptions of having a great school. If you're just relying on international, why should anyone give a crap about football at all and instead open up campuses in China? Again, the answer is in the middle.

What I liked about TMH's post is that it explains how we got here. Here's my understanding: Likins tried to make a pivot away from Lehigh being an Engineering school once Bethlehem Steel convulsed and died and pushed more towards business/arts and sciences (i.e. balancing the colleges). Since then Lehigh Presidents have tried different strategies. President Gast tried to do a massive pivot to international learning and was somewhat successful in that area. President Simon tried to fulfill a huge vision by getting the College of Health going - it's been a struggle, but it still remains to be seen long-term whether that will be a success. (So far it hasn't been great.) One thing that you can't deny - Lehigh's endowment grew by leaps and bounds. Over my lifetime it's gone from eight figures to over $2 billion, putting it solidly in the Top 50. That's a huge achievement.

Circling this back to athletics. It's an old chestnut that athletics is the front porch of a University, but more than that it signifies the philosophy and way of life of a University. Villanova's philosophy is clear from its teams - their goals at the beginning of the year are NCAA championships (in both FCS and the NCAA) while still remaining uncompromising on academics and character.

Now I'm not saying Lehigh needs to be exactly like Villanova. But lately it seems like, in football, where once upon a time there at least seemed to be the semblance of an aspiration of FCS National Championships, folks are content with... winning the Patriot League. Giving a good show in the first round in the FCS Playoffs, then exiting. Soon, it's devolved towards "having a winning record." "At least we beat Lafayette!" "At least we were competitive with Lafayette!" "Those games against Bucknell and Georgetown will be a good yardstick for next year, if we can beat them!" That's the last five years of devolving football standards in a nutshell. How does that reflect on the University - that we sometimes care about beating Lafayette? That we don't care about fielding nationally-relevant teams? We don't put up with that for wrestling. Why, now, are we doing that for football?

At what point does Lehigh, and the Patriot League, look themselves in the mirror and say that our experiment with capped roster sizes (not implemented by the Ivy League) and lack of routine redshirting (not implemented by anybody else) is a dismal failure? That it is not conducive to fielding good teams, not conducive to better athlete health, and unhelpful towards being competitive with the Ivies or the broader FCS world? Furthermore, there is zero chance of any D-I, D-II, or D-III school will want to subject themselves to these onerous anticompetitive rules.

If such restrictions were the only way to get great APR scores, I could maybe accept them - but does anyone really believe that anymore? Villanova's APR score for 2018-2019 fits perfectly with the rest of the Patriot League. Does anyone really believe redshirting and unlimited rosters have harmed Villanova's athlete academics?

Lehigh should aspire to more. Lehigh should be aspiring to FCS National Championships with uncompromising academic standards for their athletes. We don't need to look far as to how - the way to do this is to see how Villanova does it. They routinely redshirt. They don't limit the size of their rosters. They find NFL-caliber talent - sometimes through transfers. They offer 63 equivalent scholarships divided throughout the roster. And they don't compromise academics to do it. Look at their APR rates for football for the last five rates running (through 2018-2019) - 986, 987, 991, 993, 983. Those are exemplary numbers. And better than Lehigh's.
Could be up there with post of the year. Well said. Villanova has been crushing us from where we were vs them 25yrs ago. They didn't even HAVE a football team for awhile. The Jesuit thing is a big deal for a lot of kids and that's fine but they have been selling merch nationwide for basketball, on TV, winning titles, and we are in the slow lane going 45 in a 55.
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by Mountain Hawk » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:21 pm

LU808 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:56 pm
Richb-3 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:09 pm
LU808 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:39 pm

Deploying capital to it's highest purpose serves everyone....
Yep. when you reach 64 years of age, and plan on enjoying retirement with $2000 SS monthly and $3000 pension Monthly you benefit from capitalism. But then you find You are down to just SS after a corporate raid, you certainly benefit that much more..
Most if not all circumstances boil down to a series of life choices that were made and not made. No one should be held accountable to pay for the direction or lack of direction of your life. Did you graduate HS / College? Find a way to ay for continued education (community college, military)? Chose a paying profession instead of following your passion (hobby)? Save $$ for retirement or emergencies? Not have children out of wedlock? Limit yourself to children you could afford? Put off purchasing that boat, RV, bigger prestige home, 2nd home, Hawaii vacation until you could actually afford it? Not live off credit cards and debt? Avoid drugs and alcohol? Not get in legal / criminal trouble?

I'll pay for my own decisions....I ask that others pay for theirs.
too right.
Mountain Hawk
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by Mountain Hawk » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:24 pm

mookie wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:54 am Villanova is a haven for ***** from New Jersey. Kind of a Rutgers satellite.
As is most often the case your pithy comeback is way off the mark.
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by TMH » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:54 pm

lfadmin,

Thank you for your input. I agree with almost everything but allow me add some things.

Athletics at all universities IMHO are based on a combination of philosophies and money and probably not in that order.

I like analogies because they allow me to compare, contrast and analyze the differences.

Villanova football in the 1980s reminds me of Lehigh wrestling in the 1990s. The obvious difference was that Villanova dropped their program for 4 years. The program was resurrected when alumni began clamoring and then pledged big, big dollars to bring the program back to life.

Lehigh wrestling bottomed out in the 1990s and brought back to life by the extreme generosity of alumni and friends by funding the coach's salaries, scholarships, a new training facility until they became a regular in the Top 10 or 20.

The thing is IMO, the lifeblood of all colleges is money. The threat of withholding smallish donations based on perceived performance usually does not resonate well. Directed large pledges (singly or en masse) designed to improve the status quo gets attention. Donors love naming rights.

Andy Talley BTW is getting over $400K to coach Villanove. Jay Wright, is over $6 Mil. I wonder how much basketball revenue is used to fund football today.

The Colonial/Patriot League and the Ivy League have been joined at the hip since it's inception. I absolutely agree with your assessment about the failings of the PL but they view themselves as a league of high academic achievers playing schools with similar aspirations. Schedules were designed to play 3 Ivies every year. A lot of things have changed since it's inception in 1986 but the organization tends to move glacially slow. It takes pressure on the Presidents and ADs of all the institutions to get anything done and they all have different perspectives. The Ivies have finally turned the corner though so there is hope. I don't have answers but keep up the good fight.

Quick story. When Lehigh was undergoing it's transformation in the 1990s, I happened to be seated with Dr. Likens at a luncheon and I asked him..why? His response took me off-guard. He said "prospective students (in the 1990s) wanted to make their 1st million by the time they were 30. They can't do that as engineers"
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by jimk72 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:36 pm

Mountain Hawk wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:24 pm
mookie wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:54 am Villanova is a haven for ***** from New Jersey. Kind of a Rutgers satellite.
As is most often the case your pithy comeback is way off the mark.
"Mookie the Mensa Show"..... continues....
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by mookie » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:58 pm

As is most often the case your pithy comeback is way off the mark.

Ok Eddie
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LUFAN » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:46 pm

jimk72 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:12 pm This has been an incredible discussion from a broad range of perspectives and age groups. Yet fnadmin has hit the nail on the head. As usual........ The roster size and red shirt restrictions are ridiculous.....
I think there is consensus on those PL issues. That said, losing 14 straight would be unacceptable if the roster limit was 50. It’s an embarrassment to the program I grew up following and rooting for every Saturday. Time to do better.
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