Bucknell

Back-to-back PL champs 2016 and 2017.... but need to get back to relevance in the national FCS scene.
Lehigh74
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Re: Bucknell

Post by Lehigh74 » Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:32 pm

Richb-3 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:50 pm After the victory today, the 97 (it looked like about 92 today) Played the Centennial Song. Normal if the full band is there, win, lose, or draw(past only).

But what was different is the cheerleaders stood, at attention. And the players, in the midst of celebrating did the same thing.

Probably means nothing, as in Goodman, the locker rooms are the opposite way from the bands seating, but I would like to think President Heible has decided to discard the crap alma mater, and replace it with an original, far better tune.
Couldn't agree more. Lehigh's Alma Mater was stolen from Cornell. Time to give that song the boot and make the Centennial Song the official Alma Mater. Also, totally agree with the inability of the coaching staff to properly evaluate and use the talent on the roster. While this team isn't great, it's a hell of a lot better then it appeared to be in the first 6 games.


TMH
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Re: Bucknell

Post by TMH » Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:08 pm

LUFAN wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:44 am
Sundayamqb wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:56 am
IPSY1975 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:11 pm We'll LUFAN and Sunday have put today's "big win" in proper perspective

Lafayette is 2-2 in Patriot League play ..can we win against them? That remains to be seen
Based on what I saw today and have read about GU and LC, my money would be on LU to win both in close games barring anything unusual. But ... call me a "Homer."
With 12 and 20 playing well on offense, doesn’t it make one wonder who was evaluating players? These guys are playing by default and were 4th string in September. Both are PWOs. This OC has an inability to develop or evaluate. 6 college football games and an entire fall camp were wasted on a transfer QB. 20 is the shiftiest RB in the stable, feed him.
I'm not entirely familiar to how a staff evaluates players, so help me out.

The players you are referring to are Dante Perri who is a sophomore PWO (when there was virtually no freshman year) who was HM, all-league in HS and Jack DiPietro who is also a sophomore PWO (I believe), although much more decorated.

In the 3 weeks or so between the beginning of practice and the 1st game, who should get the majority of snaps and work with the 1st Team? This is both a time for player evaluation and player development.

QB....you have a returning QB on the roster again, a 3 star transfer, and 3 other scholarship players plus the PWO.

RB.... you have a team captain (Allen), leading rusher until injury in 2019 (Hill), a state record holder transfer (Garcia) and the West Virginia POY ( Hartman)

About half of those guys are now unavailable, 4 to injuries and 1 left the team. That gave the 2 Soph PWOs the ability to take 1st team snaps and a critical bye week to develop them.

How do you believe that this should have been handled differently?

It's an honest question.
LUFAN
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Re: Bucknell

Post by LUFAN » Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:00 pm

TMH wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:08 pm
LUFAN wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:44 am
Sundayamqb wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:56 am

Based on what I saw today and have read about GU and LC, my money would be on LU to win both in close games barring anything unusual. But ... call me a "Homer."
With 12 and 20 playing well on offense, doesn’t it make one wonder who was evaluating players? These guys are playing by default and were 4th string in September. Both are PWOs. This OC has an inability to develop or evaluate. 6 college football games and an entire fall camp were wasted on a transfer QB. 20 is the shiftiest RB in the stable, feed him.
I'm not entirely familiar to how a staff evaluates players, so help me out.

The players you are referring to are Dante Perri who is a sophomore PWO (when there was virtually no freshman year) who was HM, all-league in HS and Jack DiPietro who is also a sophomore PWO (I believe), although much more decorated.

In the 3 weeks or so between the beginning of practice and the 1st game, who should get the majority of snaps and work with the 1st Team? This is both a time for player evaluation and player development.

QB....you have a returning QB on the roster again, a 3 star transfer, and 3 other scholarship players plus the PWO.

RB.... you have a team captain (Allen), leading rusher until injury in 2019 (Hill), a state record holder transfer (Garcia) and the West Virginia POY ( Hartman)

About half of those guys are now unavailable, 4 to injuries and 1 left the team. That gave the 2 Soph PWOs the ability to take 1st team snaps and a critical bye week to develop them.

How do you believe that this should have been handled differently?

It's an honest question.
First, TMH…I appreciate you trolling me. Must have a lot of time on your hands.

Here’s an honest answer to your honest question. Being such an authority on college football, you surely recognize that camps are to be evaluative. Under your ridiculous premise, no freshman would ever be a starter in week 1.

Second, February -April, all summer, and August camp is ample time to evaluate for every team in the country. I guess it takes Lehigh more time? Do some research and count how many freshman started week one in D1 college football!

3 Star QB - ahhh thanks for that one. You made it easy. So, the staff “fell in love” with a star rating? Great process. Wasted scholarship. They didn’t recognize in the 0-3 Spring (16 points) that there was a reason this player was buried on his previous team?

RB - again, so fall in love with one kid and don’t play the best kid? Well, you have now learned how that turns out. You keep taking about past accomplishments and high school. That is irrelevant. The moment a kid steps on college campus, that’s over. Have to prove yourself all over again.

The reports out of Lehigh are that all QBs are cleared and all but 23 at RB. What 4 are injured?

I also want to note that spring, summer, and fall were not enough time to develop 11 at QB, but the bye week was enough for a PWO??? Come on TMH. We know you drink the kool aid, but try to be objective. This offense didn’t score a TD in 6 weeks of D1 football!!! All is well???

I made a simple point. There is an evaluation problem on offense. It’s obvious to all those who root for this team. D1 coaching staffs are paid to develop, evaluate, scheme, and recruit. The fact that scholarship players are watching on the sidelines as PWOs play in key positions, says something about the last of those as well.

I’ve already stopped going to Lehigh games that I grew up attending. Scratching out a couple wins against the last 3 opponents who have collectively lost 20 games isn’t my idea of entertainment. I am a fan, simple. So, as close as you to are to the establishment, maybe you can share that sentiment.
IPSY1975
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Re: Bucknell

Post by IPSY1975 » Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:33 pm

Again LUFAN with the Hot pen

I have already given up on our Lame Duck AD Sterret to figure this out

The good news is if our President can get the school song changed at football games he can make quite a few more important decisions regarding our Coaching Staff and Athletic Dept

Cheers!
TMH
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Re: Bucknell

Post by TMH » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:46 pm

LUFan,

Please relax. We have 2 different opinions. I have never been the type to shoot first and ask questions later so all I'm doing is validating if what you say is accurate and being retired for quite a while, time is a commodity I have. :-)

Correct me if I am wrong. I don't reject criticism. Here is the timeline as I know it.

Spring, 2020 All activities cancelled. Perri and DiPietro still in HS. Coaches cannot evaluate players live at least.
Summer,2020 All activities cancelled.
Fall,2020 Activities resume but due to a COVID outbreak, everything is suspended for 5 weeks, from late
September to early November. This situation was unique to Lehigh, I believe. Perri and DiPietro now
on campus as PWO
Winter, 2021 "Spring season" announced in late January. Over 3 feet of snow in early February. 3 game season
begins March 11. Most practices indoors. Only 6 OL available due to injuries.

Spring 2021 Lehigh elects not to opt out of Spring season. Focus is on Wilkinson at QB since he had not played in a game in 2-1/2 years due to R/S, sitting on bench for MAC Conf school FBS, and cancellation of season.

Summer, 2021 Summer workouts. Limited to fitness training. Very limited participation by coaches. Teams led by
captains tend to hold their own practices.

Fall, 2021 After about 3 weeks of camp, Wilkinson given the starting nod, then the veteran Summerville. I
was under the impression both got hurt. Perri, again a PWO, with few snaps with 1st team was
given the opportunity in Game 4. Lehigh scores 3 points against Colgate, 0 against Penn with him
under center. Then came the bye week and with Gurth back the offense was built around Perri.
DiPietro carried the ball in every game except Princeton prior to his breakout game against
Bucknell.

Is your position that any other coach would have gotten walk-ons on the field earlier in this their first actual season?
Sundayamqb
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Re: Bucknell

Post by Sundayamqb » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:47 pm

Evaluating talent?

I'm not defending LU coaches (at 1-8, it's an impossibility) ... but such issues are not unique here.

Lots of college (and professional) staffs, many sports, have this issue. It's not like wrestling, tennis or golf where challengers get to go mano-a-mano and the winner usually determines the starter.

Do you think there are college coaches who play guys to hopefully justify a scholarship, hoping those guys will eventually carry a team? Pro coaches who have to justify a big contract?

I have known a lot of college athletes who NEVER get a chance. Why?

Because they missed a camp.

Because they preferred an institution over going to a crappy place that coveted them.

Because others had better-looking video.

All sorts of other reasons.

Just like preferential treatment happens in real life.

In 20's case, listening to Gilmore's comments, the kid got a shot because he busted his tail in practice. Some guys never get that chance because they are PWOs.

Think back a few years to guys like Jermaine Pugh or Ron Jean. If I remember correctly they were way down on the depth chart, overlooked because of their size. Then there was Luke Ciannello, the QB who might have been better than the starter.

It's sad, but ... a fact of life.
LUFAN
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Re: Bucknell

Post by LUFAN » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:46 am

TMH wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:46 pm LUFan,

Please relax. We have 2 different opinions. I have never been the type to shoot first and ask questions later so all I'm doing is validating if what you say is accurate and being retired for quite a while, time is a commodity I have. :-)

Correct me if I am wrong. I don't reject criticism. Here is the timeline as I know it.

Spring, 2020 All activities cancelled. Perri and DiPietro still in HS. Coaches cannot evaluate players live at least.
Summer,2020 All activities cancelled.
Fall,2020 Activities resume but due to a COVID outbreak, everything is suspended for 5 weeks, from late
September to early November. This situation was unique to Lehigh, I believe. Perri and DiPietro now
on campus as PWO
Winter, 2021 "Spring season" announced in late January. Over 3 feet of snow in early February. 3 game season
begins March 11. Most practices indoors. Only 6 OL available due to injuries.

Spring 2021 Lehigh elects not to opt out of Spring season. Focus is on Wilkinson at QB since he had not played in a game in 2-1/2 years due to R/S, sitting on bench for MAC Conf school FBS, and cancellation of season.

Summer, 2021 Summer workouts. Limited to fitness training. Very limited participation by coaches. Teams led by
captains tend to hold their own practices.

Fall, 2021 After about 3 weeks of camp, Wilkinson given the starting nod, then the veteran Summerville. I
was under the impression both got hurt. Perri, again a PWO, with few snaps with 1st team was
given the opportunity in Game 4. Lehigh scores 3 points against Colgate, 0 against Penn with him
under center. Then came the bye week and with Gurth back the offense was built around Perri.
DiPietro carried the ball in every game except Princeton prior to his breakout game against
Bucknell.

Is your position that any other coach would have gotten walk-ons on the field earlier in this their first actual season?

My position is that there is an evaluation issue that has plagued this offense. An offense that has shown a very steady and consistent decline since 2017. *See Lehigh Football Statistics.

Let's focus on QB for the sake of this debate. You support my point with your Wilkinson comment. So, an FBS QB who has never thrown a college pass gets the "focus", not the kids you recruited? How? He was either evaluated by staff or they chose not to evaluate.

ADD THIS, Wilkinson has been on campus the exact same amount of time as the other two sophomore QBs. In that time, I would think all three would be evaluated equally???? Isn't that the responsibility of a college football coach? Or should they just look at Rivals ratings and set the depth chart?

Wilkinson then plays 3 games and gets knocked out of 2 with injuries. In the one full game he played Lehigh was shut out. The offense scored 16 points and 2 TDs. The staff went BACK TO THAT KID in the fall expecting a different outcome?

I did a little research so I had the fact straight. First, the depth chart was Wilkinson 1, Beesmer 2 for Nova. Nova - disaster, Richmond - disaster (Beesmer comes in and moves offense for the first time all season) then back to Wilkinson for Princeton - disaster.....finally, after 6 games and many months of getting all the reps, the picture became clear. If Beesmer doesn't leave the team, Wilkinson is probably 3rd string right now. There is an evaluation problem if it takes 6 games (scoring just 22 points) and maybe 60 practices (if I had to guess) to figure this out. If you disagree, then we agree to disagree. Fair enough.

Summer is much more active in most programs than you recognize. There is plenty of meeting time, opportunities to "see" kids throw, sanctioned workouts, etc. Camp in the fall is eval time and there is plenty of it.

Yes, PWOs on 90 man rosters get looks. All we read on this board is about the poor PL teams with such small rosters. This isn't an IVY roster where it's easy to get lost. Arm talent, IQ, and mobility are easy to identify in a QB. No excuses.

But, I must congratulate the OC for moving the team from 123 in total offense to 122 in total offense. The only team in the country below, the one they just beat, Bucknell. They do still hold the honor of scoring fewer points per game than any D1 team (FBS and FCS) in the country. This meteoric climb comes after scoring 28 and 38 points against the 107th and 113th ranked defenses in FCS.
Last edited by LUFAN on Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
LUFAN
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Re: Bucknell

Post by LUFAN » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:50 am

Sundayamqb wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:47 pm Evaluating talent?

I'm not defending LU coaches (at 1-8, it's an impossibility) ... but such issues are not unique here.

Lots of college (and professional) staffs, many sports, have this issue. It's not like wrestling, tennis or golf where challengers get to go mano-a-mano and the winner usually determines the starter.

Do you think there are college coaches who play guys to hopefully justify a scholarship, hoping those guys will eventually carry a team? Pro coaches who have to justify a big contract?

I have known a lot of college athletes who NEVER get a chance. Why?

Because they missed a camp.

Because they preferred an institution over going to a crappy place that coveted them.

Because others had better-looking video.

All sorts of other reasons.

Just like preferential treatment happens in real life.

In 20's case, listening to Gilmore's comments, the kid got a shot because he busted his tail in practice. Some guys never get that chance because they are PWOs.

Think back a few years to guys like Jermaine Pugh or Ron Jean. If I remember correctly they were way down on the depth chart, overlooked because of their size. Then there was Luke Ciannello, the QB who might have been better than the starter.

It's sad, but ... a fact of life.
Sunday...we agree. Nobody said anything about being fair. Life isn't fair. The point is, if this staff cannot adequately evaluate talent how can they expect to play the right kids or recruit the right kids?
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lfnadmin
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Re: Bucknell

Post by lfnadmin » Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:52 pm

Perri and DiPietro have more than earned their shots, and happily are making the most of them. They are a great story, and trying to make it anything but a great story is a grave disservice to these kids who have battled long odds to get onto the two-deep and are effectively living the dream. I'm VERY glad they chose to come here, and I'm looking forward to how they will continue to develop.

IMVHO Perri was extremely raw when he was thrust into the starting role, but he has gotten better every single week as the game has slowed down for him. He's doing better than the QB2 that left ever would have here.

DiPietro I felt was always going to be a part of the "stable of running backs approach" but it was great to see his hard work pay off on Saturday and to be such a huge part of the win.

Isn't this what Lehigh fans want to see - local guys (Perri - Philadelphia, DiPietro - Morris, NJ) getting their shots to play and seeing their hard work pay off? I know I'm happy to see it.

Certainly COVID made things very difficult, and I also agree that the mere fact that COVID made things difficult can't be an excuse for losing, because every college football program had to manage that too. However, even the most cynical of fans have to admit that it hampered the development of Lehigh's young players, of which Lehigh had a ton. It's like the lack of redshirting/roster size issue, which also hangs over this as well - it's a huge factor in what's happening, yet you know you have to deal with it, so you have to find some sort of way. That's the job of the staff.

I see the win as - you have to start somewhere, and hopefully this somewhere was a home game in Lewisburg. Next week, another chance to improve, and then the Super Bowl. I'm looking forward to the next week to see what is in store for 157 and next season.
LUFAN
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Re: Bucknell

Post by LUFAN » Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:03 pm

lfnadmin wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:52 pm Perri and DiPietro have more than earned their shots, and happily are making the most of them. They are a great story, and trying to make it anything but a great story is a grave disservice to these kids who have battled long odds to get onto the two-deep and are effectively living the dream. I'm VERY glad they chose to come here, and I'm looking forward to how they will continue to develop.

IMVHO Perri was extremely raw when he was thrust into the starting role, but he has gotten better every single week as the game has slowed down for him. He's doing better than the QB2 that left ever would have here.

DiPietro I felt was always going to be a part of the "stable of running backs approach" but it was great to see his hard work pay off on Saturday and to be such a huge part of the win.

Isn't this what Lehigh fans want to see - local guys (Perri - Philadelphia, DiPietro - Morris, NJ) getting their shots to play and seeing their hard work pay off? I know I'm happy to see it.

Certainly COVID made things very difficult, and I also agree that the mere fact that COVID made things difficult can't be an excuse for losing, because every college football program had to manage that too. However, even the most cynical of fans have to admit that it hampered the development of Lehigh's young players, of which Lehigh had a ton. It's like the lack of redshirting/roster size issue, which also hangs over this as well - it's a huge factor in what's happening, yet you know you have to deal with it, so you have to find some sort of way. That's the job of the staff.

I see the win as - you have to start somewhere, and hopefully this somewhere was a home game in Lewisburg. Next week, another chance to improve, and then the Super Bowl. I'm looking forward to the next week to see what is in store for 157 and next season.
Who is doing the kids a disservice? Yet to see anyone, of any opinion here, that isn’t thrilled for those two young men.

Thanks for another great example. If QB4 is better than QB2 isn’t something wrong? In fact 4 is better than 1. Even worse.

This discussion is about evaluation, nothing more. If you, as an expert, think Lehigh’s offensive issues were merely a result of Covid, the weather, or some other narrative, I think you’re kidding yourself. Being critical isn’t rooting against, in fact, it’s the quite the opposite.
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