Doc is staying

[lehigh90]

I think Lehigh should take advantage of a couple things. First off, athletic success can drive admissions. We have seen that at many schools Lehigh's size (Villanova, Gonzaga). Athletic performance can really lift the academic profile of a school (Clemson in football, doubling applications in the last 5 or so years, BC getting a huge boost in Flutie era). Clemson has gone from 35,000 applications to 70,000 applications, on the back of their football program. They have dropped their acceptance rate from over 50% to about 30%. It has gone from a safety school, to a reach school for many students. Villanova, 25 years ago, was a good school, far below Lehigh's level, even though their alums didn't want to admit that. Now, after 2 national championships, Villanova is a household name on a national scale, and their school may be more difficult to get in than Lehigh (the two are very comparable, although I think the acceptance rate at Villanova is now slightly lower).

Lehigh, in my opinion, has become a tougher sell for parents and students. The school is expensive, very expensive. The area is still fairly dismal. If you drive over the mountain on 378 to campus, nobody is inspired by run down row homes, where unfortunately, your child may live for a good chunk of their Lehigh career. People know it is a good school, but it's not a great school. It may cling to a ranking around 50 nationally in universities, but it is not destined to go much higher. It isn't super generous in merit based aid. They have been very slow to update the physical plant of the campus, compared to other schools. And, it was once known as a really fun place to go to school (driven by a robust Greek system), sort of a study hard/play hard place. That reputation has been gutted as well, over the last 30 years. The fraternity scene at Lehigh is now struggling along, 1/3 of the size that it once was, and the Administration seems very happy about that. The Hill is a pock marked area of abandoned houses. But, the school, ultimately, needs to attract students, and the more you attract, the better your academic profile becomes. Sports is a way to attract applicants.

I just had a conversation, very recently, with about 15 friends from Lehigh. Between us, we have about 45 kids, mostly college aged. None went to Lehigh. None. Why? Too expensive, generally, or not worth the extra money from other options. Both my kids looked at Lehigh and were accepted. I would have been thrilled to see them go there, but neither chose it, based on the area, and general feel of the campus. Both love college sports, and Lehigh didn't give them that part of the college experience.

Lacrosse and wrestling, where Lehigh has had success, don't really move the needle. Football will not move the needle since they are in FCS, not FBS, and a school of 5,000 can't really compete in football, without a bump to FBS and Power 5 status, and massive investment (Wake Forest for example). Lehigh isn't going there. So, basketball is the sports "opportunity".

It has been done at other places, too, smaller universities have made it to the big time (Butler, St. Mary's, VCU immediately come to mind). I think Lehigh is missing out on an opportunity.

Lehigh made a decision a few years back to become a larger university. I think I heard their goal is to push the school to about the 8,000 student level (from 5800 now). Their first foray into that endeavor, the School of Health, has been a massive failure in attracting students. If you get into the 8,000 level, your competition now moves up, sports wise, to schools like Tulane, SMU, TCU, all schools that spend on athletics. SMU, for example at 6500 students, knows that paying to get in the ACC, will elevate the academic status of their school. Eyeballs in college athletics will drive applications. Lehigh should not be so short-sighted. So, in my opinion, performance in sports, matters. It matters a great deal to the overall status of a university. If Lehigh doesn't want to play in that world, then try to be a NESCAC school, with great academics on a smaller scale with D3 level sports. Or, a school in the UAA (NYU, Chicago, Emory). If you want to play in the D1 world, then make it an asset for the overall university.

[Justafan]

I've been told that applications to Lehigh have surpassed 20K this year which I believe is about a 30% jump over the last 2 years.

Gonzaga which has an undergraduate population of about 7,400 (about 40% higher than Lehigh) only attracted about 8,400 applicants in 2022 having to accept 73% of them.

Just saying

[lehigh90]

You're missing the point a bit. I didn't say Gonzaga was a great academic school, just that they have been able to
build a top college basketball program as a smaller school, in a low level conference.

Also, Lehigh can play around with numbers quite a bit, like most private schools. The bottom line at Lehigh is if you apply ED (where Lehigh gets over 50% of their students), the acceptance rate in those rounds (ED1 and ED2) approaches 70%. In Class of 2027, 792 of 1531 came from ED. That is 52% of the class. Their 29% acceptance rate isn't the full story. In the last Common Date Set available from 2022-2023, 1303 kids applied to Lehigh ED, and 860 were accepted, that is a 66% acceptance rate!!!

[Justafan]

Happy to engage in this conversation but to point you implied was that having a top-shelf basketball program can have a significant impact on applications to the University.

To that point Gonzaga, which is substantially larger than Lehigh, is receiving only about 40% of the number of applications despite having an elite basketball program for years. If basketball helped Villanova's academic reputation, it apparently did nothing for Gonzaga.

Please don't confuse acceptance rate and yield rate. ED1 and ED2 which actually has been scaled back at Lehigh post US News and World Report removing that criteria from it's evaluation, has a substantial impact on the yield rate since if you are accepted in ED1 and ED2, you are committed to attending Lehigh which means 100% yield for those students. Acceptance rate is far more contingent on the # of applicants, which I noted is soaring.

With all that being said, there is value in getting our name out there especially in the middle of this country and fostering alumni interest and support. The question is, at what cost?

Interestingly, I was told by a large Villanova booster many years ago, that Villanova used the Georgetown model with Ewing and Iverson, to get basketball players into the school (at least through the Massimino years) which was to open up a side school which he called Villanova College lol. In most of these schools basketball has become a business linked to a University. I don't see that in Lehigh's business plan.

[lehigh90]

Yeah, I was trying to get across a couple of different things:

1) You can have a successful hoops program and be a smaller school (Gonzaga, Butler)
2) Athletics success can drive application volume and increase competitiveness (Nova, BC, Clemson)

I'm hoping Lehigh can get both things to happen.

I'm not confusing yield with acceptance rate.

Lehigh's yield (admits who go) is actually not great at 28.4% for 2026 (1531/5389). But, fairly typical for schools like Lehigh. When you take the 100% yield of ED out, the yield is really low.

Their latest overall acceptance rate is (5389/18415) or 29%.
Latest ED acceptance is (860/1303) or 66%.

Lehigh not really that competitive if you have the money to pay, and don't require aid.

It's also pretty known that what is driving most application volume currently, on a national level, is test optional. I don't see schools like Lehigh (private non-elite) making SAT/ACT required anymore, even though Ivies, highly selective privates, and some larger publics are starting to bring it back.

[jimk72]

I believe my earlier post about Doc getting “promoted” to assistant athletic director spawned this thread. I’m kinda shocked at its negativity. About our Alma Mater, and particularly the city of Bethlehem. I graduated in ‘72 and lived on south side all four years. We all knew if you went off campus late it could get iffy, particularly at five points and at that Stop & Go burger joint. So we traveled in groups. The mill spewed smoke all day, and your car got a coating of ash particles when they blew and reloaded the furnaces. And there were 30+ fraternities so you need not leave campus. Just a huge old run down steel mill that didn’t realize it was about to go broke in an old run down part of historic Bethlehem.

And now. My wife and I have lived in suburban Allentown the last 45 years and frequent downtown south side Bethlehem for dining, entertainment, campus events, and of course Stabler and the Goodman campus for sports. South side is a vibrant, safer environment. Most of the store fronts are old but remodeled/ restored and full of shops, boutiques, pubs, restaurants, etc. Not everything’s beautiful and new and nothing will ever be perfect. But the old blast furnace area has been cleaned up as a historical site. The rest is being slowly restored. And of course there’s the newly expanded casino and hotel. But south side is 900% improved relative to when our class attended.

As to Lehigh and its academic credentials and selectivity, I’ll have to trust other peoples’ opinions. One thing for sure is that Simon was very unpopular. But it seems a bit early to declare the new college of health a failure. Lastly, a question about the acceptance rate….. If all schools use the same formula…..isn’t that at least somewhat relevant to compare the selectivity of schools? Regardless of ED? If they’re not using the same then it’s obviously a bogus way to compare.

[lehigh90]

I would say it is clear that the few loyal posters on here (hoops probably under 20) have a long love of Lehigh and their time there. You have to love the school to follow their athletics like we do, which probably 99% of alums don't follow. We travel to games, home and away, but we are very limited in numbers. A lot of guys on here will attend wrestling, football and basketball games. If you survey the under 40 alums, there may be none that follow Lehigh athletics, unless they were an athlete at Lehigh.

That being said, my love for Lehigh sometimes clouds some major issues that, I feel, the school faces. I don't think the school has been quick to adapt to the current landscape of college admissions. Most schools Lehigh competes with have country club like campuses. Lehigh has beautiful old structures, yet they have not really been updated on the interiors in quite a long time. When you go on a college tour of Lehigh, they take you to Lower Centennial dorms, which were never a highlight. It is welcome to 1970. I assume they do that because they have air conditioning, and parents, these days, are concerned about that. Even the Alumni Memorial Building where all tours start at Lehigh, is old, and not particularly updated. It doesn't tour well. You walk by a lot of old buildings that look amazing, but they don't take you inside for the most part and the insides aren't really impressive. When I toured it twice, recently, I had a feeling that what made Lehigh great in the 1980's and 1990's, and I'm sure earlier, is gone. The identity of the school for me was gone. Kids now want massive food courts, amazing gyms for working out, and beautiful study spaces where they can integrate with their peers. Lehigh doesn't have a lot of that. Linderman Library is an amazing old building, stunning actually, but I don't think it impresses students today. They want new and fancy. Kids show up at Lehigh to tour the school, and a lot of them want to know about the social scene and the storied Lehigh Greek system, which they know about. Nothing is mentioned about that. In fact, tour guides go out of their way to avoid the topic. It is almost as if Lehigh is embarrassed about their past. And, any social scene related to Greek life has been pushed off campus, for liability purposes, I assume.

I haven't had a chance to see all of the new on campus. I've seen the Business School that is now probably 20-30 years old, and I'm happy a new building is coming, as the current is already a bit dated. I haven't been inside the 3 new towers that I understand house upperclassmen, on the old site of Sigma Nu. That's a big upgrade, and a money maker for the University to keep kids on campus in on-campus housing, rather than lose them to the slum lords of the Southside. I've never seen the money that is probably being spent on the Mountaintop Campus, so can't comment there, but it wouldn't likely attract undergrads. I hope the new UC is incredible and has the eating options that modern campuses have, and study spaces, and meeting spaces.

I don't know, perhaps, like most of us, I am becoming a dinosaur. I think college now isn't what it once was. Now kids go to college, and there is a ton of pressure to get in, a ton of pressure to find an internship, and ultimately a job. If your education is going to cost $350,000, parents, rightly, want results. We went, studied a bunch, had a lot of fun, and we all got jobs eventually, and most of my Lehigh friends are really successful people. It just doesn't seem that much fun anymore.

[Justafan]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but based on your comments, I'll assume you really have not been back on campus recently.

In the last few years, Williams Hall has gone through a major renovation inside as has had the Chandler-Ullman Building (the Chem Building). Not only do they have the 3 new sets on dorms in Tremblay Park that you alluded to earlier but also the ultra modern South Side Commons on the corner of Broadhead and Packer.

They fairly recently constructed the HST Building (Health School) and the very modern new Business School which you should check out. They are in the process of a $100M renovation of the University Center and planning is moving forward on Packard.

I suggest you visit them all.

But you talk to students or even read athletic bios, the campus is a huge draw to Lehigh. Students love the "Harry Potter" mystique of the old buildings integrated with the modern architecture across Packer Ave. When I took by sons on their college visits, I found myself comparing campuses to Lehigh and they all came up very short.

South Bethlehem, as jimk recently pointed out incredibly well has undergone a complete metamorphosis. Spurred by Wind Creek and Artsquest, there are dozens of restaurants, bars, entertainment options just off campus. There are reasons that applications went from 15K to 20K in 2 years.

A bit off topic, but Lehigh Admissions opened up an auxiliary location in northern California a while ago and applications from that area have soared. Rumor has it they are planning to open another one in Southern California and more intriguingly Texas.

[lehigh90]

"I'll assume you really have not been back on campus recently."

Apparently, you didn't read very closely what I said. I have toured Lehigh, on a student led admissions tour, TWICE, in the last 18 months. I've been on the campus, additionally, probably 10 times for athletic events in that period (granted not really on campus, other side of Mountain), and once inside Zoellner to see a speaker, and going back on the 27th to see another. I've seen the campus plenty. And, I have been inside Williams Hall, on both tours. Have not been inside Chandler-Ullman. I plan to check out the other new stuff shortly, when I can. Are you guys really trying to say the area where students live off campus is a nice area? I'm focusing on the area between Alumni Memorial Building and 378, which is full of group student houses. It's not nice at all, and students have been driven to that substandard housing by their Greek life policies. I've seen probably 30 other campuses in the last 2-3 years, and I honestly don't feel like Lehigh compared that well. As an alum, who loves Lehigh, that really disappointed me. It angered me that both of my kids preferred Lafayette and Bucknell to Lehigh, although thank God, neither chose to attend Lehigh's rivals.

Curious, justafan, did your sons choose to attend Lehigh?

On the College of Health, which I mentioned seemed like a failure, and was questioned on that. I am no expert on the topic. However, Lehigh decided to invest in this new College. I think it has been open 3 years now, give or take. The building was open in 2021. Currently, they enroll 168 students, that's it. 3% of the student body. They list 26 professors in the College of Health. Who are they teaching exactly? That is like classes of 6 kids on average. I understand it is early days, and I have no idea how big they anticipate this school to be (10% of the student body?) But, it doesn't seem like a rousing success. And, I think you need to ask why make this sizable investment in a new College like this, when they could have invested in many other areas or just beefed up the student body in A&S, Business and Engineering. I hate to see the budgeted numbers for this endeavor so far, but it must be bleeding money.

[jimk72]

Meanwhile back at the title of this thread….”Doc is staying”; we’ve won four in a row! Tomorrow I’ll be in Easton at noon for lunch at The Tic Toc diner, then on to College Hill and Kirby gym for 2pm tip. The purple polka dots stumbled on a very good young coach for the head position after their initial choice melted down last year. So tomorrow would be a great win for us. Then back to Stabler for Leopard versus Mountain Hawk women at 7:30. You’re all invited!